(From the audience: “how would I go about documenting that a patient I, or somebody else, currently has in treatment, in fact was involved in that kind of experimentation?”) Well, here’s how the documentation has gone so far. By the way, I have done Freedom of Information Act requests on MONARCH at all Intelligence Agencies, and they have all denied it exists. The patient apparently has no source of contamination for specific MONARCH memories, but has the word Monarch in her mind, and has very specific detailed Monarch-type mind control memories. Her father basically abused her domestically and ritualistically, and then took her over to the mind control people. How she got there, what the transport mechanism was .. plane, car, location is all vague because she appears to have been all drugged out then transported. Is it possible that her father could have been this kind of person? Well, I have his military service records which I got through the Freedom of Informatiion Act, I have a letter from him in prison where he is imprisoned for mob crime connections, I’ve got a mother and a sister corroborating the domestic incest, the sister with some patchy corroboration of ritualistic and mind control memories, I’ve got the father personally connected to Jack Ruby. That’s as far as it goes. It’s sort of circumstantial and intriguing.
So the way I would attempt to document it would be if the person tells me (most people can’t tell you the specific name of the doctor) but if somebody gives you a specific name of a doctor, and gives you a specific location, and you can establish that this doctor actually existed, and you can establish that in fact this doctor was a CIA employee, and you can establish that this person’s father was imprisoned by the FBI as part of a Mafia raid by looking at the journal articles that the patient has, then you are starting to get closer and closer. So it is your basic investigative reporting type stuff. Name the specific base. Okay what do you know about the base? How did you get there? Tell me about some buildings? Tell me about personnel. Describe the uniforms. What was used? And then if you can get another subject who was there at the same time … that’s just the way it is. It is your basic investigative reporting. Which is way beyond being a therapist. There is no therapeutic obligation to do this. This is mega beyond duty to take collateral history. So I don’t think there is any mystery as to how it would proceed. And it will proceed probably in the same way as the history of declassified information since WWII.
In about, I think 1988, stuff was released to the Senate and the Congress and then to the Press about all these radiation experiments. Nobody did anything. It didn’t even get into the newspapers. It was in the public domain for five years before it finally hits the newspapers. Now we’ve got this government report that is 900 pages long on all the radiation experiments, including giving radiation to children and radiation to pregnant mothers and the children of those pregnancies dying of leukemia by age five. This is huge, big stuff. Everybody was apathetic, didn’t think it was newsworthy, didn’t even put it as a little trailer item in the New York Times. This is no longer vague. We know the specific names of people, when they died, whether it was plutonium or whatever was injected, the names of the doctors, the names of the medical schools where it was done, it’s all keyed up for compensation, the government has set up a whole compensation mechanism.
If we look at the Tuscagee Syphilis Study … it is worse than the creation of Manchurian Candidates. It was set up in Tuscagee, Alabama in the 1940’s. The experiment is-you’ve got 400 rural, dirt-poor black guys with active syphilis and 400 controls. These people are followed without treatment into the 1970’s. The people who are involved in the Tuscagee Syphilis Study (it is a huge long list and I can’t remember all the details of it) but it includes the County Medical Society, the administration of the study was actually taken over by the Centre of Disease Control, the Surgeon General, the American Heart Association, all kinds of people were witting, knowledgeable and aware of the study and ap proved its ongoing nature well into the 60’s and into the 70’s, in complete violation of all known medical ethics. Well okay, that was kept kind of secret. Nobody heard about it except some of these medical bigwigs. No.
I have a medical paper from the medical school published in 1965 called “Untreated Syphilis in a Male Negro – A 20 year follow-up”. This stuff is published, right in the medical literature. It is looking everybody right in the face. What happens when you have 400 illiterate rural black guys with active syphilis untreated, for 40 years? Well, the outcome of the experiment is, you will be very surprised to hear, they don’t do too well, they develop a lot of disease, and they die young. They do another thing. They breathe air. There is another behaviour that we can predict in these guys. They eat food. Going down the list? They urinate and defecate. Continuing along with basic human functions, they have sexual intercourse with women. Anybody who has been to medical school will tell you it is 100% guaranteed that if you take 400 black guys with syphilis and do not treat them, the rest of their lives, you are guaranteed to be creating cases of congenital syphilis. The entire medical community knows this as an elementary fact that you learn in first year medical school, it is published in the medical literature, and it’s condoned by all levels of the old boys network in world medicine. This is totally unbelievable and completely factual.
This Manchurian Candidate stuff is like Mickey Mouse Psych stuff. It’s not even heavy duty. The nurse who was the head of the Tuscagee Syphilis study throughout its duration, actually got an award from the Public Health Service because of her work on the Tuscagee Syphilis Study. The individual guys have gone and testified at the Senate. You can read the book, “Bad Blood” and these guys are named as individual human beings. Which individual human beings who are victims of military mind control research do we already know? Harold Blauer, the tennis pro who was killed. Frank Olson who was killed because he jumped through a window because he took LSD mixed with Cointro by Sidney Gottlieb, administrative Head of MKULTRA who I talked to on the telephone.
When was the Olson family compensated? He died in 1955 or something. They were compensated by the President in 1977 I think it was. The reason the wife and surviving children figured that in fact this was not a simple suicide was they read the Rockefeller Report on CIA activities published in 1975 in which the case was described without him being named. So, they are reading the Rockefeller Report, and they realize their husband/father was actually killed by experimental LSD and they are compensated for 3/4 of a million dollars. One of the people who testified at the Committee hearings at the Senate in 1975 was a technician for Amadeo Morazzi who was the guy who w as the Head of Edgeware Arsenal where Paul Hawk got his LSD and mescaline from who was funded by the Air Force while he was at the University of Minnesota.
His research assistant whose name is Mary Ray(sp) was given a dose of experimental LSD which resulted in an acute psychotic state for which she was admitted to hospital for which I have her medical records, and I am in contact with her lawyer and I am going to go up and get her story in more detail. She talks about a room that was involved in the LSD research called “The Leaf Room” so when you were on your LSD trip that was administered by Amadeo Morazzi you were taken into the Leaf Room which was a room where all surfaces of the room were totally covered with leaves. This is weird stuff. She also was connected into a bunch of other stuff. I am not going to go into all of it, because it is a little weird, but it is two hops from Mary Ray to Iran Contra. So she is a real person who exists. I know her lawyer. I talked to her lawyer on the phone. I am going to fly up there. I am going to interview her. I have her medical records. And the way this works is the stuff that is happening now is not going to be declassified for 20 or 30 years.
Eventually we will have the names of people who were victims of experiments in the 70’s and 80’s and 90’s. We already have the names for the 50’s and 60’s, not really into the 70’s. We have the names of specific people who were victims of the Tuscegee Syphilis Study and the radiation experiments into the 70’s. That’s the way it goes. You are just pushing back that curtain and there’s always this lag time because you are relying on the views of the Intelligence Community or public apathy … “it was back in the Cold War” “it’s different now” “we joined the boy scouts and we don’t do that anymore”. So there is always a disinformation strategy for wh y it happened a long time ago and we don’t do it now and we are very regretful and we are so regretful that we in fact agree to compensate these victims. In Oregon there was a prison where men were paid to be subjects to participate in radiation experiments. Their testicles had been irradiated so they would get paid a certain fee to participate in the radiation of their testicles. Special arrangements were made so Catholics couldn’t participate in the study because they couldn’t use birth control so they might give birth to genetically mutated children … so it had to be only non-Catholic participants. There was an extra fee, it was a little bit fatter, if you would agree to testicle biopsy to see if the radiation was dropping the sperm count. When 9 of these people pressed their case to the State Legislature in Oregon in either the late 70’s or early 80’s, in its magnanimity, the Legislature agreed to compensate them for a total of $3000 for all nine subjects. So this is the way it goes in trying to document this stuff and trying to make it public and identify the specific individuals. IT’S A BIG SLOW JOB. And when you make Freedom of Information requests it’s like interacting with any Federal Bureaucracy.
In fact the CIA has been extremely helpful, extremely polite, extremely courteous and when I went to the CIA Reading Room in Washington, it was a very unusual experience. Let me just tell you the story. Here I am, a Canadian psychiatrist, going down to the Eastern Regional Conference, and a day early I pop over to the CIA Reading Room to look at the MKULTRA documents to figure out which ones I want to order at 10 cents a page which they then shipped to me which arrives at my office via UPS with CIA stamped in the corner … I’m wondering who thinks that’s weird … so I show up and it is just this building in Virginia, on a street, it is completely unrecognizable as anything … I get dropped off there … whoa … there’s all these guys in uniforms and here I am, this civilian. On the wall there is “Secure Telephone CIA and DIA Only” and I am kind of standing around and some guy says “Good Morning Sir” … I say I am here to read some CIA documents. I am supposed to show up at this location at this time and here is the letter … and they’re going, CIA jeez … who are we going to phone … are you supposed to tell somebody you are here, or how is this supposed to work? Well, I don’t know, I was just told to show up here … he says, well, we don’t know who was supposed to meet you … so I say, well, could I use your phone … not that phone … this phone over here. I phone my secretary and ask what’s the telephone number of the contact person? She gives it to me and I tell them you’re supposed to contact this person at this phone number. It’s okay, they say, they’re going to be down in a minute. So then I sign in … I am escorted up the elevator … it’s all military guys and I’m in the elevator thinking okay which one of these guys is doing surveillance on me? I come up to the floor and I am walking along and it’s a federal building and the floor is under repair … there’s all kinds of construction stuff lying around, and construction guys … I go walking along accompanied by this CIA person, and I go into the first room which has a steel vault door and says “Secured Area: Treasury Department” … I go into that room and they close the door. I am now in a Secured Area. She says Okay sign in here … I think I signed in … I forget. Then I go through another Secured steel door into a second Secured Area except I can’t enter that Secured Area except from another Secured Space. I sit down and they bring in all the documents on a little cart and she gives me 15-20 pencils beautifully sharpened, and a notepad and everything … you order which documents you want at the end of the day … and there’s a woman who is at least 80, if not 85, who is a retired volunteer, sitting there watching me all day. In the room that I am in, that is a Secured Space has a door opened back to the hallway that I came down from the elevator to come to the first Secured Space to go into the … I am sitting there working away on this huge amount of documents all day … work work work work … some time in the middle of the day this old woman comes at me, now I am thinking, is this old woman trying to pump me for information, what’s here report going to be back at the end of the day? She says, “well, what’s that stuff you are reading?” I am trying to act casually, I just say, “Well, it’s just a bunch of mind control documents from the 50’s and 60’s.” And she says well, is that stuff classified, and I say, no, no, it was declassified a long time ago, and she says, well what do they need me here for? I go, I don’t know and then I stopped talking to her and I started focusing down on the paper. So then I get distracted by a couple of black guys who are walking down the corridor who have something to do with the construction. The 85 year old woman who is watching me has to go to the restroom so they are assigned to watch me from the door. They’re some black guys who start joking around, oh oh this guy’s pretty dangerous, we’ll have to watch him … then at the end of the day I leave. That’s my experience at the CIA.
But the main contact person is very friendly, very polite, very efficient, very helpful … and it’s through this process, I mean they have given me these documents, they are the ones who have made it possible to prove that the CIA has been creating Manchurian Candidates … I have all these other requests on MKSearch, MKNAOMI, and stuff and I am going to put one in on Stargate. If you want to do a request on an individual, it turns out that you have to establish his place and date of birth, his full name, his date of death, the fact that he was an American citizen, and you have to have public documentation of his death before they will do a search. Which is the proper protection of people. So you have to do all of this background research to find out when did Carl Pfeiffer die, and where he died, and get a newspaper clipping from Atlanta to document that. Then you said all that information into them, and he asks for information on this particular guy and they send you back the MKULTRA documents that you already have, that you already know is due to him, except now his name is not whited out. So a lot of it is just dealing with a Federal Bureaucracy and it’s just REALLY REALLY SLOW and they say … we’ve only got two secretaries and we’ve got a million requests and we are too overloaded and we don’t have our new computer system but we are working on it … it’s it’s just a VERY VERY SLOW LABORIOUS PROCESS TO GET THIS STUFF.
If it is already declassified and it is indexed, then you can get it fairly quickly … like the MKULTRA stuff. If it is just being organized and isn’t yet declassified, then you get in a line, and you are piggybacked on top of the first requester. When the first requester gets the stuff, you will get it as well. MKSEARCH? I have been waiting for a couple of years already. So it’s like … you’re trying to change the way agriculture is administered in the USA … it’s this huge laborious process, and you are just trying to egg the bureaucracy on and on and on … But just to kind of repeat the editorial comment, basically I don’t have a beef with the Intelligence Agencies. My beef is with the psychiatrists and the psychologists. Questions or comments?
Q. Do I know if I am being surveilled?
A. I have been approached by millions of people at conferences. I don’t know if any of them are operatives or not. I have had no negative, scary, frightening, intimidations, threats, my office hasn’t been broken into, no mail tampering, nothing has gone missing, no patients have done anything weird or dangerous towards me, nobody has disappeared, no dead chickens on my doorstep … nobody has hustled me into a black car and all of a sudden I am in Topeka, Kansas and I don’t know how I got there. Nothing like that has happened, so I just assume that if it hasn’t happened by now, it’s already too late, like what’s the point?
Part of this story, and it is the personal side of it, is, how do you work your way through all this material and get more and more and more of these connections and not succumb to terminal paranoia? And it’s really just sort of a Zen … the Zen of investigating military mind control … you just have to stay centered and decide not to be paranoid … not let it get to you. Because you can get off into how many witnesses to the JFK assassination are dead, and what about Pan Am 103, what about Timothy McVeigh’s computer chip in his buttock … you can really get out there real fast. When he was first arrested, Timothy McVeigh said he had a computer chip implanted in his buttock … On the other hand, I hope Intelligence Agencies are not so fast asleep … basically … it is narcistically injurious to think they are not paying any attention at all … I can’t take that. I know for a fact they have a file on me because I have filed millions of Freedom of Information Act requests. The other thing I know is I got my Green Card in 1994 at the highest level of Green Card there is … it’s a level where you don’t have to even have a job … or any visible sign of support … and I got this Immigration lawyer who put my whole c.v., and all my publications, and letters from people together, and so that involves, obviously, a security screen by the State Department which means connected to Justice and connected to FBI etc etc so I know I have been screened through all that kind of mechanism and come out … in fact, I had to go to Calgary for the Green Card and the consulate came up and shook my hand and said, “boy I bet you we’ve got a lot if dissociation disorders right here … we could really use you.” [lots of laughter]
Q. unintelligible
A. I think they are trying to pretend that they are not going to get uncovered and just carry on with life and enjoy their retirements … Overall, what’s going on now … I assume that there is still a lot of research funding through cutouts with unwitting investigators … I assume there is a bunch of witting investigators. There is another arm going on currently … that’s artificial intelligence Overall, what is going on now? I assume that there is still a lot of funding of research through cutouts with unwitting investigators. I assume there is a bunch of witting investigators. Let me tell you about another arm that is going on currently. That is artificial intelligence research. I know that, for instance, Marvin Merskey at MIT, in his book, “The Society of Minds”, he acknowledges his extensive Office of Naval Research Funding. That goes back to John Lilly who is tied into the LSD network who treated dolphins with LSD – he was involved in communication with dolphins – it is a documented fact they have been used to swim up to ships to blow them up – with bombs attached to the dolphins during the Vietnam War. We hear weird stuff from patients sometimes about dolphins and mind control. John Lilly is tied into the LSD network and I have him attending CIA sponsored LSD symposia. He invented the flotation tank – flotation tank is in network in all the sensory deprivation stuff and mixed in with hallucinogens. He wrote a program on metaprogramming and the human computer which is an early artificial intelligence treatise that basically defines a modularity model of the human mind which is the dominant model of neuronetworks, all that area of artificial intelligence and a whole bunch of different Office of Naval Research funding. That is ongoing up to the present … there is Office of Naval Research funding for this kind of project … also for rat physiology, rat psychology … research that has to do with modularity of brain functions and modularity of memory which all is directly relevant to creating Manchurian Candidates because you want to know the modular organization of the brain.
Q. ____
A. If the hypothesis is that … now I am not saying that everybody on the FMSF Advisory Board consciously is aware of this … most of them are totally out to lunch and have never heard of it or thought of it … the point would be that the Intelligence Agencies have somehow penetrated the FMS movement and are trying to spin it in that direction and amplify it for those purposes and candidate people for Intelligence oversight would be Martin Orne, Joly West, Richard Ofshe, etc. Maybe Michael Persinger. So if that is the hypothesis, the basic thing is to cover up government created Manchurian Candidates, why are all the patients coming in with SRA stories? Well, that could be just accidentally related and just part of a cultural hysteria and not real. The other paranoid conspiracy theory is that the Intelligence Agencies sub-contracted the cults to prime the children to be good subjects for really really complicated Manchurian Candidates. Because if you just start with G.I. Joe at age 19, you can’t get intensely polyfragmented multi layers of defense system in place very easily. One of the pieces of logic that I didn’t mention is … if you go back to G.H. Estabrooks in WWII, he is creating one alter personality in an adult recruit. Let’s look at the stages the computer is at during WWII and run up to 1996. We have to postulate that the technical advance and the increase in complexity in mind control research operations is at least somewhat parallel to the complexity of artificial intelligence, all the rest of science, etc. So if they are still doing it, it’s got to be a lot more complicated. You can’t get to a lot more complicated from a foundation of a normal 18 year old military recruit … so that’s the ultimate in paranoid conspiracy theory. It’s a matter of putting windows in the program … the first window that comes open is the SRA — the window behind that is the military mind control. Alternatively the whole SRA thing itself could be deliberate disinformation that has been implanted in the culture. Broaden the question a little bit. What’s my political recommendation on what should be the legal liability of government induced Manchurian Candidates for criminal acts that they have perpetrated? I would say that we should have a double amnesty program. And this is for strategic purposes. Politics is the art of the impossible. Some people could say this is unethical and this is caving in and playing the game. I think we have to have a double amnesty program for any criminal acts conducted by government induced Manchurian Candidates in the course of the government operations-and also amnesty for their handlers. Because if we don’t have that, then the drive to keep it all covered up is too great. My basic argument is that the Intelligence Community has been sold a bogus bill of goods by these guys, like G.H. Estabrooks and all his heirs down the line. It is overkill, it is unnecessary, it’s ridiculous … you can just drop it … and there will be no operational loss. Do I know that for a fact? I haven’t got the faintest idea. But that’s what I propose to them-they could do their own analysis. If we are going to stop it, and let it come out to the public, that will never happen if the individual handlers and operators in the Intelligence Community are going to be nailed in public and personally responsible. So there has to be a double amnesty program … but then there has to be financial compensation for the victims who get identified. That is less likely to happen if the compensation comes out of the Intelligence budget- therefore, it ought to come out of general Federal funds-not to reduce Intelligence funding-otherwise you have set up systemic disincentive for this stuff to ever be declassified. However, that should not cover drug, pimping, and other operations run on the side by handlers doing Manchurian Candidates.
Q.__
A. This is an extremely tricky question that you are asking. Why does a government created multiple get off the hook and a domestic created multiple doesn’t? The domestic created multiple is not going to be happy. I will give the reason I don’t let the domestic created multiple off the hook-really quickly-it is that it destroys the foundation of recovery. The foundation of recovery is “you are not insane, you’re not out of control, it’s something you created inside yourself to survive, you can un-learn it, and be well.” And part of healing is being responsible for what you do now. If we don’t do that, the whole unit gets behaviourally out of control. So, like it or not, we hold people responsible for the behaviour of their alters, and I don’t view DID as grounds for an insanity defense in and of itself. So then you are going to say, well why doesn’t that then apply to these government created people? Well, I just think it is different. When you’ve been deliberately, systematically experimented on by a government, you deserve a bit of a break for actions which you have committed as part of your government assignment … in other words, if you are a Manchurian Candidate and you are just out in the world and you go out and rape somebody, good, you do the crime, you do the time, that’s my attitude. I am only talking about crimes that they have committed, specifically on assignment for the military Intelligence Agencies. They are basically soldiers at war.
Q. __
A. Where does Charter Hospital fit in? I would like to know if Charter fits in anywhere. One thing that I would be willing to do, would be to run a classified unit for treatment of these individuals. I would be very happy to do that and to negotiate a Management Services Contract with the Federal government to do that- R.
Q. __
A. Does any of my work support Cory Hammond’s talk at the Regional Eastern Conference in 1992 for which he has been attacked and ridiculed about Dr. Green and all that? Not directly. Indirectly, and when you tie into the Paperclip conspiracy … I am getting the documentation much closer to conclusion, that, if not Dr. Green, some psychological warfare experts must have been brought over from Nazi Germany. So that part of it is no longer kooky. I think that Cory Hammond made a strategic error by going too far out beyond his documentation too fast, and leaving himself exposed to ridicule. Although I am thankful to him that he did that because then I learned alternative strategies.
Q. ___
A. The whole way that the tobacco industry is set up … regulated, not regulated, funded, lobbied, and the disinformation campaign that it is run by the tobacco companies-is basically effective-they are still being sold and they are still making a profit off of killing people. So you could say that’s like a lung control experimentation program that has been run by the tobacco companies and everybody is just kind of, in effect, letting it go by. Except actually the medical profession and the public has gotten on tobacco way more than they have ever gotten on mind control … but we will change that with the book and the movie. (Laughter and much applause)
Source: http://whale.to/b/ross.html
