OKC Bombing: An Explosion Devastates the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City – An Inside Job Resulting in the Deaths of 168 People

The Salt Lake Tribune reported on February 21, 2007,

Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols says a high-ranking FBI official “apparently” was directing Timothy McVeigh in the plot to blow up a government building and might have changed the original target of the attack, according to a new affidavit filed in U.S. District Court in Utah.

The official and other conspirators are being protected by the federal government “in a cover-up to escape its responsibility for the loss of life in Oklahoma,” Nichols claims in a Feb. 9 affidavit.

Documents that supposedly help back up his allegations have been sealed to protect information in them, such as Social Security numbers and dates of birth.

The U.S. Attorney’s Office in Utah had no comment on the allegations. The FBI and Justice Department in Washington, D.C., also declined comment.

Gene Corley, the engineer who was hired by the government to support its claims about the structural fire at the Branch Davidian complex in Waco, was brought in to investigate the destruction of the Murrah Building. Corley brought along three other engineers: Charles Thornton, Mete Sozen, and Paul Mlakar. Their investigation was conducted from half a block away—where they could not observe any of the damage directly—yet their conclusions supported the pre-existing official account. A few years later, within 72 hours of the 9/11 attacks, these same four men were on site leading the investigations at the Word Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Documents released under the Freedom of Information Act confirm that the FBI received a phone call the day before the Oklahoma City bombing warning that the attack was imminent, and that the feds tried to reach a deal with bomber Terry Nichols to take the death penalty off the table if he admitted making the call.

In another report, the Deseret Morning News named the FBI agent as Larry Potts, but that information has now been sealed by the court.

Potts was no stranger to anti-government confrontations, having been the lead FBI agent at Ruby Ridge in 1992, which led to the shooting death of Vicki Weaver, the wife of separatist Randy Weaver. Potts also was reportedly involved in the 51-day siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas in 1993, which resulted in a fire that killed 81 Branch Davidian followers.

Potts retired from the FBI under intense pressure and criticism for the cover-up of an order to allow agents to shoot anyone seen leaving the Weaver cabin at Ruby Ridge.

“McVeigh said he believed Potts was manipulating him and forcing him to ‘go off script,’ which I understood meant to change the target of the bombing,” Nichols stated.

The affidavit was filed in a lawsuit brought by attorney Jesse Trentadue, whose brother Kenneth was tortured and beaten to death in an Oklahoma City federal prison in 1995. Authorities claimed Trentadue had committed suicide but he was being held in a suicide proof cell at the time and autopsy photos of his body showed he had been shocked with a stun gun, bruised, burned, sliced and then hung. Kenneth Trentadue bore a striking resemblance to John Doe #2, but he was not involved with the OKC bombing in any way.

Trentadue’s investigation led to a federal judge nearly finding the FBI in contempt of court for tampering with a key witness. Trentadue now says, “There’s no doubt in my mind, and it’s proven beyond any doubt, that the FBI knew that the bombing was going to take place months before it happened, and they didn’t stop it.”

Judge Clark Waddoups, who presided over the case brought by Jesse Trentadue, ruled in 2010 that CIA documents associated with the case must be held secret. These documents show that the CIA was involved in the OKC bombing investigation and the prosecution of McVeigh. This means that foreign parties were involved because the CIA is prohibited from interfering in purely domestic investigations.

In response to Trentadue’s FOIA request, the CIA filed what is known as a Vaughn Index, a summary of withheld classified information. The Vaughn Index reveals that a potential witness in the Oklahoma City Bombing trial was associated with the CIA. The document describes “contacts between the CIA and the potential witness,” and also contains information on “the location of a covert CIA facility,” according to Intelwire. Mention of the covert CIA facility is mentioned in a cable sent on the day of the OKC bombing.

During his investigation, Jesse Trentadue also discovered that Attorney General’s Ashcroft’s office gagged Terry Nichols, a co-conspirator with McVeigh, from speaking to the media after Nichols volunteered to tell everything about the bombing and the others involved. With it apparent that McVeigh’s accomplices and government ties to the bombing were in danger of leaking, General Ashcroft issued the gag order.

The following report about how the prosecution tried to implicate Nichols in the bomb plot made it out of the mainstream media (AP) only once and then was suppressed:

A federal death row inmate who may testify in the state murder trial of Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols says the defendant didn’t help Timothy McVeigh make the bomb.

Prosecutors contend Nichols and McVeigh made the bomb at a lake in north-central Kansas the day before the April 19, 1995, attack, but David Paul Hammer asserts McVeigh told him that other coconspirators helped him assemble the device the night before in an Oklahoma City warehouse.

“Nichols backed out. He didn’t show up,” Hammer said in a March 26 interview.

Hammer, who served on death row with McVeigh, could bolster defense lawyers’ arguments that Nichols was set up by unknown coconspirators to take the blame for the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building that killed 168 people.

Prosecutors (ie: Merrick Garland, Biden’s AG), who are seeking the death penalty against Nichols, 49, are expected to vigorously attack Hammer’s credibility if he takes the stand.

On August 3rd 1993, film director Billy Bean was given a tour of the Camp Grafton military facility in North Dakota as part of a research effort to scout possible shooting locations for a film he was working on. Bean met the Camp Superintendent Col. Dahl and was permitted to film every location he visited.

Bean takes up the story, “I videotaped all locations as possible future shot sites even if there was no actual scene written for that location. Mess Hall, Rec Room, Armory, etc. About an hour into the tour we passed by a long row of tanks and I was informed these had been used in the Gulf War. In fact I believe I was told there were captured tanks there also. While videotaping and viewing this location, two soldiers began to offload what I was told was an armored personnel carrier from a flatbed. One soldier driving the other directing from the ground. I watched them for a moment and then did a slow 360 with my camera and came back to them.”

Given permission to board the tank, Bean walked over and pointed the camera inside, at which point one of the soldiers turned around and, appearing somewhat shocked to see the camera, uttered a brief response to Bean’s question and attempted to push past him.

That individual was positively identified to be Timothy McVeigh, who according to the official timeline as endorsed by the FBI, was honorably discharged from the military for the last time in May 1992. And yet he is seen here on tape at a U.S. military base over a year after that date in August of 1993.

“I did not realize how significant what I had was, for many years,” states Bean, “It was not until Mcveigh’s trial that I realized it was Mcveigh in the tank. Even then the larger point escaped me. That point is, McVeigh was not supposed to be in the military at that time. His military record shows him enlisting in 1988, being honorably discharged from the Army, on Dec. 31, 1991. His records then show he was in the Army reserve in Buffalo New York, from January 1992 until May 1992, he was then honorably discharged from the Army reserve. After May of 1992 he was never again in uniform on any base anywhere, never again part of the military. He was totally out of military service. The FBI states the only time they lose track of McVeigh, in his entire life, is the late summer of 93. They think he was somewhere between Kingman Arizona and Decker Michigan. Probably at gun shows, meeting antigovernment rightwing militia types. But he wasn’t, he was at Camp Grafton, in uniform, learning explosives and demolition!”

To confirm that the individual in the tape was indeed McVeigh, Bean presented the video to Prof. Blomgren of the University of Utah, who then undertook a voice forensics analysis. The results produced an 86% match for the voice characteristics heard in the video compared to those taken from a 60 Minutes interview with McVeigh.

In early April 1995 a Ryder truck identical to the one used in the bombing was filmed by a pilot during an overflight of of an area near Camp Gruber-Braggs, Oklahoma. A June 17th, 1997 Washington Post article authenticates the photos as being exactly what they appear to be, photos of a Ryder truck in a clandestine base at Camp Gruber-Braggs. Why were the military in possession of a Ryder truck housed in a remote clandestine army base days before the Alfred P. Murrah bombing?

In a 1993 letter to his sister, McVeigh claimed that he was approached by military intelligence and had joined an “elite squad of government paid assassins.” McVeigh often contradicted himself and changed his story on a whim to fit in with the latest government version of events. Is the Camp Grafton footage evidence of McVeigh’s enrollment in such a clandestine program?

Multiple reports of Arabs at the scene assisting McVeigh were ignored and surveillance tapes were withheld under national security. The likely reason for this was the fact that Bush senior and Clinton were responsible for bringing in nearly 1,000 Iraqi soldiers captured by U.S. forces during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, some of whom were involved in the bombing. The FBI claimed McVeigh scouted the Alfred P. Murrah building weeks before the bombing and yet on the morning of the attack he stopped at a local gas station to ask directions, lending credibility to the new claims that he was being controlled by other conspirators and that the target of the bombing had been changed. Perhaps this caused him to be 24 minutes tardy, because 20/20 discovered there was a call to the Department of Justice that Federal Building had been bombed 24 minutes before the first explosion.

A Noble Lie features powerful never-before-seen TV footage and interviews with survivors, victims’ family members, police officers, rescue workers, and citizen investigators who have been fighting to expose the truth for the past 17 years. It also uses government documents to reveal new information to the public.

In A Noble Lie, we learn that ATF employees (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) who worked in the Murrah Building received messages on their pagers prior to the bombing telling them not to go to work. And when the bomb went off at 9:02 a.m. none of the children of ATF workers were present in the building’s daycare center. Many eyewitnesses reported that bomb squads in full reaction gear were seen around the building immediately before the blast.

“Where was the ATF?” is the question Edye Smith, whose two children were killed in the Murrah daycare, asked on national TV. All of their employees survived because they were told not go in to work that day. After she asked that question, she says government agents told her, “Keep your mouth shut, don’t talk about it.”

The film also reveals that the public persona of convicted bomber Timothy McVeigh was a complete fabrication. Rather than being a radical who hated the government, Emery says, he was actually a CIA sharpshooter and assassin who had been involved in covert government drug trafficking operations. He had been decorated several times, even receiving one commendation while he was in prison for the bombing.

“McVeigh was a very cunning, very talented sharpshooter,” Emery says, “He was a puppet, a showpiece for the official narrative.”

Emery says that McVeigh’s job was to infiltrate militia groups and pose as an anti-government extremist to build up this false persona. Timothy McVeigh was put to death in June 2001 for his part in the crime.

The popular conception was spun by the press corps like a clay urn: McVeigh, the volatile minute man, was so bitter after failing to make the Army’s “elite” Special Forces, so stuffed full of the froth of the Turner Diaries, that he vented his rage on the Alfred Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

McVeigh, Manchurian Candidate

Captain Terry Guild, McVeigh’s’ former platoon leader, told reporters that the failure to become a Green Beret left the Iraq War veteran “upset. Not angry. Just very, very disappointed.” In the Army, he demonstrated a willingness to carry out orders, any orders. He trained on his own time while other soldiers languished in their bunks or caroused at the PX. As a civilian, Timothy McVeigh continued to dwell on the military. In 1992 he took a job with Burns International Security Services in Buffalo and was assigned to the security detail at Calspan, a Pentagon contractor that conducts classified research in advanced aerospace rocketry and electronic warfare. Al Salandra, a spokesman for Calspan, told reporters that McVeigh was “a model employee.”

“He was real different,” Todd Regier, a plumber, told the Boston Globe. “Kind of cold. He was almost like a robot.”

Within a few months, his manager planned on promoting McVeigh to the supervisory level. But McVeigh’s bitterness, once directed at the military, “was becoming directed at a much larger, more ubiquitous enemy.” It was in Buffalo, as a civilian, that McVeigh’s rage peaked. While visiting friends in Decker, Michigan, McVeigh complained that the Army had implanted him with a microchip, a miniature subcutaneous transponder, so that they could keep track of him. He complained that it left an unexplained scar on his buttocks and was painful to sit on.

It’s conceivable, given the current state-of-the-art in classified mind control technology, that McVeigh had been drawn into an experimental black project.

Jeff Camp, who worked as a guard with McVeigh in upstate New York after high school, told Newsweek that the bomber was “a very strange person. It was like he had two different personalities.” The press has ignored the rise of mind control operations and technology, but electronic monitoring of the brain has been perfected in research laboratories more secretive than the military science units that once tested nuclear isotopes on crippled children.

The generals keep it close to their armored vests, but the miniature implantable monitor was declassified long ago. Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico, for instance, markets a sensor implant sealed inside a “hermetic biocompatible package” that runs on a tiny power coil, complete with a programmable sensor and telemetry circuits. Sandia’s sales literature notes that the implant’s design “is founded on technology originally developed for weapons.”

Miniaturized telemetrics have been part of an ongoing project by the military and the various intelligence agencies to test the effectiveness of tracking soldiers on the battlefield. The miniature implantable telemetric device was declassified long ago. As far back as 1968, Dr. Stuart Mackay, in his textbook entitled Bio-Medical Telemetry, reported, “Among the many telemetry instruments being used today, are miniature radio transmitters that can be swallowed, carried externally, or surgically implanted in man or animal. They permit the simultaneous study of behavior and physiological functioning.”

It is interesting to note that McVeigh claimed that the Army implanted him with a microchip. According to Dr. Carl Sanders, the developer of the Intelligence Manned Interface (IMI) biochip, “We used this with military personnel in the Iraq War where they were actually tracked using this particular type of device.”

It is also interesting to note that the Calspan Advanced Technology Center in Buffalo, NY (Calspan ATC), where McVeigh worked, is engaged in microscopic electronic engineering of the kind applicable to telemetrics. Calspan was founded in 1946 as Cornell Aeronautical Laboratory, which included the “Fund for the Study of Human Ecology,” a CIA financing conduit for mind control experiments by emigre Nazi scientists and others under the direction of CIA doctors Sidney Gottlieb, Ewen Cameron, and Louis Jolyn West.

According to mind control researcher Alex Constantine, “Calspan places much research emphasis on bioengineering and artificial intelligence (Calspan pioneered in the field in the 1950s).” In his article, “The Good Soldier,” Constantine states:

“Human tracking and monitoring technology are well within Calspan’s sphere of pursuits. The company is instrumental in REDCAP, an Air Force electronic warfare system that winds through every Department of Defense facility in the country. A Pentagon release explains that REDCAP “is used to evaluate the effectiveness of electronic-combat hardware, techniques, tactics and concepts.” The system “includes closed-loop radar and data links at RF manned data fusion and weapons control posts.” One Patriot computer news board reported that a disembodied, rumbling, low-frequency hum had been heard across the country the week of the bombing. Past hums in Taos, New Mexico, Eugene and Medford, Oregon, Timmons, Ontario and Bristol, England were most definitely (despite specious official denials) attuned to the brain’s auditory pathways.

“The Air Force is among Calspan’s leading clients, and Eglin AFB has farmed key personnel to the company. The grating irony — recalling McVeigh’s contention he’d been implanted with a telemetry chip — is that the Instrumentation Technology Branch of Eglin Air Force Base is currently engaged in the tracking of mammals with subminiature telemetry devices. According to an Air Force press release, the biotelemetry chip transmits on the upper S-band (2318 to 2398 MHz), with up to 120 digital channels.”

There is nothing secret about the biotelemetry chip. Ads for commercial versions of the device have appeared in national publications. Time magazine ran an ad for an implantable pet transponder in its June 26, 1995 issue — ironically enough — opposite an article about a militia leader who was warning about the coming New World Order. While monitoring animals has been an unclassified scientific pursuit for decades, the monitoring of humans has been a highly classified project which is but a subset of the Pentagon’s “nonlethal” arsenal. As Constantine notes, “the dystopian implications were explored by Defense News for March 20, 1995:

“Naval Research Lab Attempts To Meld Neurons And Chips: Studies May Produce Army of ‘Zombies.’

“Future battles could be waged with genetically engineered organisms, such as rodents, whose minds are controlled by computer chips engineered with living brain cells…. The research, called Hippo-campal Neuron Patterning, grows live neurons on computer chips. ‘This technology that alters neurons could potentially be used on people to create zombie armies,’ Lawrence Korb, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, said.”

“It’s conceivable,” according to Constantine, “given the current state of the electronic mind control art, a biocybernetic Oz over the black budget rainbow, that McVeigh had been drawn into an experimental project, that the device was the real McCoy.”

What this defense department newsletter may have been discussing is the successor to the “Stimoceiver,” developed in the late 1950s by Dr. Joseph Delgado and funded by the CIA and the Office of Naval Research. The stimoceiver is a tiny transponder, implanted in the head of a control subject, which can then be used to modify emotions and control behavior. According to Delgado, “Radio Stimulation of different points in the amygdala and hippocampus [areas of the brain] in the four patients produced a variety of effects, including pleasant sensations, elation, deep, thoughtful concentration, odd feelings, super relaxation, colored visions, and other responses.”

According to Delgado, “One of the possibilities with brain transmitters is to influence people so that they conform with the political system. Autonomic and somatic functions, individual and social behavior, emotional and mental reactions may be invoked, maintained, modified, or inhibited, both in animals and in man, by stimulation of specific cerebral structures. Physical control of many brain functions is a demonstrated fact. It is even possible to follow intentions, the development of thought and visual experiences.”

As Constantine points out, the military has a long and sordid history of using enlisted men and unwitting civilians for its nefarious experiments, ranging from radiation, poison gas, drugs and mind control, to spraying entire U.S. cities with bacteriological viruses to test their effectiveness, as was done in San Francisco in the late 1950s. The most recent example involves the use of experimental vaccines tested on Gulf War veterans who are currently experiencing bizarre symptoms, not the least of which is death. When attorneys representing the former soldiers requested their military medical files, they discovered there was no record of the vaccines ever being administered.

Timothy McVeigh may have unknowningly been an Army/CIA guinea pig involved in a classified telemetric/mind-control project — a “Manchurian Candidate.” (See more on McVeigh and Chip Implants HERE)

Accomplice John Doe #2 and theories about his identity range from an Iraqi named Hussain Al-Hussaini, to a German national described below, to a neo-nazi bank robber named Richard Guthrie. The Justice Department finally gave up its search and said it was all a mistake— that there was never any credible evidence of a John Doe #2 being involved. But not before Richard Guthrie was arrested for a robbery and allegedly hung himself in jail only a day before he was to do an interview that he claimed “would blow the lid off of the Oklahoma City bombing.” He was also preparing to testify in a court case and in the process of writing a book on the OKC bombing. Was he the true John Doe #2 or just another look-a-like gone wrong like Kenneth Trentadue?

Andreas Strassmeir, a former German military officer, was suspected of being John Doe #2. Strassmeir became close friends with McVeigh and they were both associated with a neo-nazi organization located in Elohim City, OK. A retired U.S. intelligence official claimed that Strassmeir was “working for the German government and the FBI” while at Elohim City. Mainstream reports about the OKC bombing typically avoid reference to Strassmeir.

Patrolman Hero Terrance Yeakey

We learn the heartbreaking story of patrolman Terrance Yeakey, who was one of the first to respond after the bombing took place (he was there is less than 10 minutes) and who was credited with saving several lives that day. Yeakey was collecting evidence about the bombing, and he was subjected to daily harassment and intimidation from his fellow officers because he refused to go along with the official version of the event.

His early arrival at the site showed the government’s official description of the bombing to be false. They had claimed McVeigh’s truck contained an ammonium nitrate bomb, but if that were true, the air would have been unbreathable for some time after the bombing. This was not the case.

A year after the bombing, and shortly before he was to start work at the FBI, Yeakey was brutally murdered, although his death was ruled a suicide. For this to be true, however, Yeakey would have had to cut his wrists and neck before leaving and locking his car. He would then have had to climb a barbed-wire fence, walk more than a mile through a field, and then shoot himself through the head at an unusual angle. No gun was found. No investigation was conducted.

In this false flag operation the CIA recruited Timothy McVeigh when he was in the army and had him join a right-wing militia so that the government could paint him as a “Right-wing extremist,” after the Murrah building bombing. But, like 9/11, the building was pre-loaded with explosives. The truck bomb was just there to trigger the event, doing damage to the facade, and make it look like McVeigh was the culprit along with his “right-wing” accomplices.

Merrick Garland’s role was to make sure McVeigh was prosecuted and silenced for the bombing that the Deep State engineered, so that he couldn’t later talk. McVeigh’s cellmate said the bomber was fiercely proud of still being part of the government. The coverup of government involvement makes Garland a Deep State accessory, and that is one reason why he was put on the DC Circuit Court, where the Deep State needs judges in key positions to control hostile lawsuits against government secrecy by Judicial Watch and others, and later the head of the DOJ as a reliable cover up artist and henchman. (WAB)

The aftermath of the bombing led to the passage of the Omnibus Crime Bill and the demonization of the ‘Patriot Movement’, which was spreading like wildfire as opposition to federal government abuse grew following the events at Ruby Ridge and Waco. The consequences of the Oklahoma City Bombing effectively dismantled the Patriot Movement before the turn of the century.

There are many links between OKC and 9/11 besides the same 3 investigators that were brought in to echo the official narative. For example, the alleged hijackers visited the OKC area many times and even stayed in the same motel that was frequented by McVeigh and Nichols. After both the OKC bombing and 9/11, building monitoring videos went missing, FBI harassment of witnesses was seen, and officials ignored evidence that did not support the political story. Additionally, numerous oddities link the OKC area to al Qaeda. In 2002, OKC resident Nick Berg was interrogated by the FBI for lending his laptop and internet password to alleged “20^th hijacker” Zacarias Moussoui. Two years after this interrogation, Berg became world famous as a victim of beheading in Iraq. Investigators looking for clues about these connections will be particularly interested in two airports in OKC, the president of the University of Oklahoma, and the CIA leader who both monitored the alleged hijackers in Germany and was hired at the university just before 9/11.

Southern Poverty Law Center

Additional FOIA documents establish the fact the FBI was working with the SPLC. An unclassified copy of a memorandum marked “From the Director of the FBI” contains several references to an FBI undercover operation at Elohim City before the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building and also mentions the SPLC informant.

“If I told you what we were doing there, I would have to kill you,” Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center told reporters.

The SPLC has played an instrumental role in attempting to link the militia movement to domestic terrorist activities.

Was the bombing a ‘sting gone wrong’?

Hoppy Heidelberg, who was a member of the Federal Grand Jury that investigated the bombing in 1995, was dismissed from the Grand Jury because he insisted on the right of jurors to call witnesses and to view the Alfred P. Murrah videotapes.

After seeing the film A Noble Lie, Heidelberg reacted angrily to the suggestion by Charles Key, a state representative and founder of the Oklahoma City Bombing Investigation Committee, that the bombing was a “sting gone wrong,” a suggestion also made by another committee member, Dale Phillips.

One comment that upset Heidelberg was when Key says in the film: ““Some in the media would accuse us [OKBIC] of saying the government blew the building up, which we never said, and I don’t believe.”

Emery praises the work Key has done pushing for the truth on the bombing over the years, although he reaches a very different conclusion as to how it happened.

In my view, Key’s belief is similar to someone believing that the 9/11 “attacks” happened because of government bungling. Fortunately, A Noble Lie just does too good a job of exposing the government lies and deceptions for the “sting” theory to hold any water at all. The idea that things just got “out of control” flies in the face of so much of the evidence.

If I had a criticism, however, it would be that the sting contention kind of comes out of nowhere, and it isn’t directly refuted by anyone in the film. Had Heidelberg or former Tulsa police officer Craig Roberts (who was interviewed) been asked directly about this theory, both would certainly have forcefully discounted it.

In an article in American Free Press, Roberts commented on the sting theory: “People saying this have never been in law enforcement. That bell just doesn’t ring true to me.”

Resources:

• New OKC Revelations Spotlight FBI Involvement in Bombing
• The Oklahoma City Bombing (911 Review)
• Documentary ‘A Noble Lie’ Exposes Oklahoma City Bombing as Government Black Op
• Watch Trailer of ‘A Nobel Lie‘; Buy Movie

Additional Reading/Watching:

• OKC Bombings Revelations (pdf book)
• The OKC Bombing and the Politics of Terror (David Hoffman)
• Bill Jasper (The New American writer) Discusses the OKC Bombing
• VIDEO: The OKC Bombing and Why it Still Matters (Corbett Report)
• Video: A Noble Lie: Oklahoma City 1995
• Listen: Oklahoma City Bombing – Interview with Wife of Terry Yeakey
• Video: OKC Bombing: The Forerunner to 9/11
• Video: Former CIA Asset Robert “Cody” Snodgres – OKC Bombing & More on The Hagmann Report
• Video: Murder in the Heartland
• Video: Federal Grand Juror Hoppy Heidelberg Exposes Oklahoma City Bombing False Flag Operation
• Video: The Truth About The Oklahoma City Bombing (Former FBI Head of Dallas, LA offices, Ted Gunderson)